Curse

Zrave · Mar 11, 2005, 11:38 AM // 11:38

In my opinion, foci *have* to alter your current energy. Consider if they didn't, you could start combat with a -regen +energy mod foci. Gradually, you'd switch to lower and lower items with more interesting properties as you spent energy, eventually using a zero-attribute shield.

That system is just plain worse than what we have right now.

Cleocatra · Mar 11, 2005, 01:48 PM // 13:48

While this is certainly valuable information, I have to agree that this is an exploit, not a feature. If item switching during battle has gotten to the point that it actually effects skill balance and makes some skills act differently (using the example you gave earlier, I doubt this is how the developers intended wither to be taken off), I think this needs to be fixed.

In my opinion, it is fine if they want to have weapon switching during battle as part of the game, but they should really balance it out a bit more and add in some sort of switching penalty.

FrogDevourer · Mar 11, 2005, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zrave

Consider if they didn't, you could start combat with a -regen +energy mod foci. Gradually, you'd switch to lower and lower items with more interesting properties as you spent energy, eventually using a zero-attribute shield.

You could do that indeed. But hardly more than once per battle. Compare this to the current swap trick which can be used consistently and you'll understand why I'd advocate this sytem. Having a small pool of extra energy that you'll use once per battle is far from perfect (read: too powerful), but in my opinion, it's much better than being able to summon this energy/health battery whenever you need it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

There's nothing disproportionate about it - skills and equipment are different game mechanics and as such they're treated differently.

Although I understand your point, I still disagree with it. Weapon mods and skills are intricately linked. Being able to switch to whatever weapon mod you need is as bad as having access to 20 skills instead of 8. You can build your character without any constraint. If you combine rare mods + components, you can currently pack way too many options. You can basically use a weapon slot for each situation. Playing a warrior? Put a larger energy pool in one slot, energy regen/leech in another slot, high defense in one slot, enchantment duration in a slot, etc...

You can pack everything you need, just like you would if you could equip 20 skills instead of 8. There is no longer much strategy involved in choosing your weapon or weapon mods. In my humble opinion, with only one melee weapon (and optionally one range weapon) you would have to make tougher choices, and more strategic choices. That's why it would add to the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

In fact the only particularly valid complaint is that weapon swapping increases a character's equipment dependence.

That's indeed my second point. To be competitive in PvP, you need 4 top level weapon combos. So you need 4 weapons with max damage and good mods, four times more components with perfect mods... The game is supposed to reward skill, not time spent farming. I know the current situation is far from being perfect, but filling only one weapon slot with strategic mods does reward (at least a little more) skill over wealth.

One could argue that it does require to remove/balance overpowered mods (energy leech come to mind) first. Otherwise all players would only pick a handful of overpowered mods. But that's no different from removing/balancing overpowered skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Given the state of the game as of the last BWE I can sympathize with this,
...
If players are having trouble getting the equipment to flesh out one quick slot, let alone four, isn't that a comment on item availability and not the quick swap system?

You misunderstood my point. Getting the equipment isn't hard. Any player can farm for a few hours/days and get thousands of gold as well as a handful of perfect rare weapons to make a competitive build. The true issue is that with 4 slots, you have to farm more than you would with only 1 or 2. Basically you replace a good strategic plan by a couple of hours of farming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Basically, unequipping then re-equipping a focus should put you in the same position you started in.

It should indeed, but it does not. As show by the focus swap trick, as long as you have a negative energy level, you're untargettable for energy stealing/burning effects (barring degeneration). As for health bonus, I don't remember reading anything about it, but I suppose that losing this bonus can't kill you (more or less like the pain skills). You'll be left with just 1hp, but you're still alive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

For someone who apparently cares about symmetry and uniformity as much as you do, you sure have taken a funny position on how quickswapped foci work. My guess is that your dislike of anything that makes quickswapping a more desirable practice overrides what would normally be your feelings on this matter.

My opinion on the focus system is simply forged on what you can observe in other games with similar weapon swaps. If the focus works on your max and not just on your current level, you can still use it efficiently but the energy drain potentially created in the process makes the swapping a carefully planned action, and not a swap fest (want to cast a longer enchantment, swap, low on energy, swap, need to leech energy, swap, need lightning dmg for glimmering mark, swap, need fire, swap...).

But you have a point. In other circumstances I would probably pick the symmetric option over any other. My current grudges against the focus system is probably linked to my feelings toward the weapon swap. Basically I've never been a fan of sideboards or backup options. You play the game with your cards, not with your cards + a backup setup for anything that can come up. Every character should have strengths and weaknesses, and not strengths + backup equipment.

Lastly a minor point. GW is not a simulation but a little realism wouldn't hurt. In a real fight, you won't see a swordsman change his shield & his sword every 10 seconds (moment plz, let me get that damn leech weapon in my bag).

Dreamsmith · Mar 11, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

In a real fight, you won't see a swordsman change his shield & his sword every 10 seconds (moment plz, let me get that damn leech weapon in my bag).

When arguing realism, you should keep the examples realistic. People who do switch weapons mid-battle (and this happens frequently in real life) don't put their other weapons in the bottom of their bag/backpack. Instead, they wear multiple holsters (or scabbards or whatever). There's a time penalty for doing so, but not more than a second or two at most, assuming they've planned for it. Adding a short delay would be realistic. Removing the option entirely would be unrealistic.

Does this remove a bit from the strategic aspect of the game regarding choosing your weapon(s) carefully? Let me ask you this -- would reducing the skill bar from eight skills to one add or subtract from the amount of strategy involved in making your build? It seems to be that, when it comes to choices, the lowest strategy points come at zero and infinity. The highest point, strategically speaking, is going to be somewhere in between. Multiple choices, so that you have to plan how to use different things together or in different circumstances, but not so many that you can just be ready for anything without thinking about it. I see no reason why this principle doesn't apply to weapons just as well as to skills, although with less variety in weapon options, it makes sense that the sweet spot is going to be lower. It's certainly going to be greater than one, however.

Even if it did reduce the strategic element of the game regarding constructing a build (which I don't believe it does), you have to look at the tradeoff vs. the tactical elements, since with only one choice, it's all strategy and no tactics (once I'm in battle, I don't have to decide if this is an optimal point to switch to that other weapon -- that option wouldn't exist). Having multiple weapons increases the tactical element of the battle, and even if I thought it reduced the strategic element before the battle, I think it would be a good trade-off in this case.

Rellok · Mar 11, 2005, 04:33 PM // 16:33

But doesn't that just open you up for more Mind Wracks? I mean if you put yourself in a negative energy situation, simply to be able to cast a 10en spell every so often you are keeping yourself below 3 most of the time. An arcane echoed Mind Wrack can be doing 188+ damage every 6 seconds just due to your lack of energy.

Maybe it's all fixed once you cast power leak. Just hope they don't time theirs to be cast just before yours. I guess ideally if you see that they are draining once you hit 0 then you equip your focus and cast power leak.

But then again, it puts an awfully heavy importance on being part Mesmer.

Matt

Cpt Teancum · Mar 11, 2005, 04:56 PM // 16:56

I think it's hard to say (at this point in the beta) whether this is an exploit or a planned feature. Regardless, I can't see how adding penalties to weapon-switching or reducing the number of weapon set slots benefits the game. If anything, it adds depth.

Example: In the heat of battle, you notice that the ranger you've been spamming Flare at switches armor. Now what do you do? Did she just swap to armor with higher elemental protection? Or perhaps she switched to use the extra energy that comes with that focus she's now holding in her left hand (thanks to a tip she read in the GWGuru forums

). The point being, you have to make a tactical decision now, planning for something that was unforseen. I believe this increases the chance of success based on skill as opposed to time spent in-game (provided that you are familiar enough with the game to know some of the possible combos a ranger might be carrying).

This being said, I tend to agree with FrogDevourer on one point. The fact that to be successful in PvP you are required to have high level equipment and weapons in place (or as backups) means one of two things: 1--you spent time pharming to get the items themselves, the crafting materials to make them, the mod components, and the gold to pay for all the upgrades--this takes time and seems to be rewarding those who have spent loads of time in-game and not those with possible greater skill; 2--you have a friend or guild member who did all the work for you and sold/gave you the items. Either way it seems like players are being rewarded for time and not skill.

I don't know the best answer to this problem, but I applaud Anet for their efforts at making success skill-based. I tend to think that if they leave rewards for time, they are minor rewards that won't have too much of an effect on the overall gameplay.

Ciao,
CT

FrogDevourer · Mar 11, 2005, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Instead, they wear multiple holsters (or scabbards or whatever).

I'm not claiming to be a military or history expert but, as far as I know, few soldiers have been using four large weapons in the same fight and most importantly, none swapped them back and forth like we do in GW. As far as realism is concerned, I could bear a bow+melee weapon or even an off hand weapon for surprise attack. However if you can show me an history book with warriors carrying (and using) 4 huge hammers, I will argue no more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Let me ask you this -- would reducing the skill bar from eight skills to one add or subtract from the amount of strategy involved in making your build?

This comparison is not fair but I see your point just like I did for Charles. In my opinion, there is a big difference between picking one skill and getting the right weapon for your build. When you equip a skill you can control only one variable, the skill itself. When you fill a weapon slot, you're not selecting only one mod, you have multiple degrees of freedom: weapon type, rare mods, 2 components, shield or focus, and focus mods... Picking the right combination can be as complex as combining multiple skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Having multiple weapons increases the tactical element of the battle, and even if I thought it reduced the strategic element before the battle, I think it would be a good trade-off in this case.

Again, I disagree with this statement. Unless my English semantics betrays me (and it wouldn't be the first time

), using tactics is the art of dealing with unexpected events and using your strengths to achieve what was planned with strategy before the event. If you are ready for many situations using backup equipment, there is little unexpected in the battle and little tactics is needed to win.

As long as you have optional equipment ready for unexpected situations, many tactical choices of the battle are removed. With only a couple of weapon slots, you could hope to use your strategy to catch an opponent off guard by using unusual weapons/skills/plans. Your opponent would have to use unusual manoeuvers to adapt to the situation. With 4 slots, it's easier to be ready for the unexpected, and your opponent hardly need tactics anymore. He'll just swap to weapon slot XX and keep up with the main plan.

Nevertheless, you do have a point. The highest point is between zero and infinity. I see the current system as close to infinity. There are many degrees of freedom for each weapon slot (good), and many weapon slots (bad), plus a near instantaneous weapon swap (very bad). Personally, I would tend to make weapon swap slower, more dangerous, and only have a few weapon slots for different usages (range+melee).

Barkam · Mar 11, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Rellok,
That's very situational. And of course when you have mind wrack on you, you wouldn't swap your equipment around so that you have 0 energy for a long time.

nicosharp · Mar 11, 2005, 06:40 PM // 18:40

ya I noticed this also using the scepter of orr and dropping it before fighting in PvE.

That is a really good idea for key situations in PvP, although some may consider it an exploit, I think it is just gaming mechanics.

LoneDust · Mar 11, 2005, 06:45 PM // 18:45

So the inclusion of weapon-swapping shortcuts provide diversity, but it also promotes farming due to the fact that some items are rare. However, I don't see weapon swapping is really the issue for farming. The drop rate of these "rare" items is the true cause of farming. Personally, I'd swap weaons/items when possible to use it to fit a strategy or a skill being used. One other quick example I could think of at this moment is to take off the energy focus right before Ether Prodigy ends to reduce the amount of damage taken. I see these as tricks and tips for players, but really game exploits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rellok

But doesn't that just open you up for more Mind Wracks?

Hence you need to be skillful at knowing when to use tricks. Knowing how to use a trick can only take you so far.

Rellok · Mar 11, 2005, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Maybe I am too concerned with the details. The innitial post may have been simply illustrating one possible way do deal with energy denial using the focus trick. And by doing so, he is maybe opening the eyes of those who haven't discovered this element of game mechanics just yet.

Never mind my nitpicking ramblings.

Matt

Ensign · Mar 11, 2005, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Let me ask you this -- would reducing the skill bar from eight skills to one add or subtract from the amount of strategy involved in making your build?

Exactly - no weapon swapping drops you down into 'one skill' territory as far as strategic depth goes. This is incredibly undesirable. The other end of the spectrum - unlimited access to skills and/or weapons, is equally undesirable, because then you just have uniformity. The high point of maximum diversity and strategic depth is somewhere in between.

The problem I have along these lines is that equipment swapping isn't limited by the number of weapon quickslots you have, but by the size of your inventory. There's nothing stopping you from playing with your inventory open, with 45 different weapons sitting there waiting to be swapped in at a moment's notice. While four weapon sets to choose between makes for some interesting weapon choice decisions and creates a level of tactical depth, forty five weapon slots would seem to defeat the purpose.

I think that weapon quickslots are the way they are as a matter of practicality. Four weapon slots that you can switch between quickly is roughly what I'd want to have on a character - maybe I'd keep a couple more weapons in reserve on my belt for really odd circumstances, but I can't see myself ever wanting a full inventory of items to swap between. So locking in your weapon slots while in a mission doesn't add too much, making it a non-critical feature. I do think that it would be a good change, though. It'd treat weapon groups more like skills - you have different ones available, but you have to make the choice ahead of time.

There are more pressing changes to weapon groups needed, though, such as dealing with the way that weapons jump around in your inventory now (under the old inventory system weapons would stay in their place in inventory while you swapped around, now they change physical locations in your inventory), which coupled with how easy it is to switch equipped weapons leaves you pretty vulnerable to accidentally salvaging your own gear. The previous system where you had to hit a button to assign a weapon to a group, coupled with salvage protection for items currently assigned to a weapon group, is a needed addition.

But I'm wandering off topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

Being able to switch to whatever weapon mod you need is as bad as having access to 20 skills instead of 8.

I tend to see it as being as bad as having access to eight skills instead of one. AKA, not a bad thing at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

If you combine rare mods + components, you can currently pack way too many options.

Can you really? You don't get to pick your combinations of mods on the fly - which mods you want to use together is something that you have to choose beforehand. You don't get to carry around a selection fo hilts, pommels, weapons, and shields and put them together on the fly. What kinds of weapons you want have to be chosen beforehand, and this puts a much bigger constraint on the problem than you want to admit to. Elementalized weapon or no? If you want that choice, you have to lock in every other choice before battle - what the pommel you're going to use is, what rare mods you want, and what shield or focus you're going to assign to those. You want another degree of freedom, like switching between focus and shield? That doubles the number of slots you need to four - physical + shield, physical + focus, elemental + shield, elemental + focus. Plus you've locked in your rare mods and pommels before the battle began.

Granted this can start to get crazy as you swap weapons in and out of your inventory. But if you're just limited to your weapon groups? There are a whole lot more choices being made then you're admitting to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

My opinion on the focus system is simply forged on what you can observe in other games with similar weapon swaps.

As Zrave and I have both mentioned, if you use the symmetrical option that works on max energy instead of max and current, then strategic depth is reduced to 'everyone uses a focus in their initial flurry, then quickly swaps to a shield since the focus no longer does anything'. That's not anywhere near what you want.

I agree that giving people unbounded options is not good for the game, but locking people into one weapon set is about as interesting as a one skill slot game. If you wanted to limit people to a small number of quickslots, clearly I agree with that, but having to pick and choose just one? That does more harm than good.

Peace,
-CxE

Luggage · Mar 11, 2005, 09:28 PM // 21:28

So most could perhaps agree on 4 [locked during battle*] weapon slots, and a slight time delay/interuptability during weapon change as a balanced system?

* during battle = the time you dont get an accelerating health regen.

cce · Mar 11, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44

If you can switch "masks" during combat, you could have two of
them:

mask +1 illusion, +1 minor helper for illusion
mask +1 fast casting, +3 major helper for fast cast (-100HP)

Then, you could go into battle; wear the 'fast' mask and do
mantra of recovery -- setting your penalty to only one
additional energy. Then, you could switch masks to the
illusion one, giving you nice bonuses for your various
arcane spells.

If switching swords/foci should be legal, then switching masks
should also be legal, no? It's not that hard to swap one's mask.

Ensign · Mar 11, 2005, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Well, locked slots for battle would be what you want - make people make choices about what weapons they want to bring - but I'm not convinced that it's really neccessary. Unlike skill slots, where every player could and would bring every skill available, weapon slots are self limiting in their own way. I'd think that your average player would be more annoyed by not being able to equip the sword he just found than interested by the choices that come from only having four weapon slots available. Most people don't swap weapons at all.

I'd like to lock weapon slots to stop potential stupidity before it starts. Equipment is diverse and important enough that people are going to want to swap things in and out all the time to gail advantages over their foes - I really don't want to get to the point where everyone's carring around a dozen weapons and six armor sets with runes to swap in as warranted by the situation. This is what Frog Devourer is complaining about - equipment choice really stops being a choice, getting buried in sheer glut. It certainly is a potential problem.

While I'd like to see some weapon swapping in the game - I think it adds to the strategic and tactical diversity - locking in your armor and weapon groups before the battle starts forces those important choices that keeps the game from turning into an all tactics, zero strategy glut.

So I say lock in skills, attributes, and equipment in a mission - one armor set, four weapon groups. Let each of these change freely outside of a mission. Yeah, I am advocating getting rid of refund points and instead letting people adjust their attributes at will once they're back in town. You can't level up immediately in a mission, but again, is that really a problem?

Peace,
-CxE

Barkam · Mar 11, 2005, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Yeah, I am advocating getting rid of refund points and instead letting people adjust their attributes at will once they're back in town.

I agree with this completely. It will definitely help those casual gamers to cope with the dynamic teams they find themselves in. People don't have to prepare to join that group by going on a mission to just collect refund points to better mesh with his group. This also helps out with smaller guilds with people being not online at the same time, to still be able to compete in PvP.

Some might say that this might promote FOTMs and less diversity in toon make-ups, but Arena.net has done such a good job with balancing the skills and classes so far that I have no fear of this happening.

Spura · Mar 16, 2005, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Meh, you do realise this trick is one shot deal?
Unless you really do power leak them, but that is assuming you are a domination mesmer.

The problem is, while I can swap it in when I have been drained down to 0 energy I can't swap it back because it will trigger mind wrack each time I swap back to shield and mind wrack is so damn ouch.

Zrave · Mar 16, 2005, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Well the whole point of the idea, as I initially discussed it with Ensign, is that you switch when you see him casting a drain spell. The switch protects whatever energy you had, while forcing your opponent to use his resources any way.

Next time he tries to wrack you, you even have the option of switching back to keep yourself above 0, protecting you from one wrack cycle.

By the way, I'm not saying that mind wrack is strong, something to prepare against. I'm saying that for these and other reasons, that strategy is just not viable in high level PvP (which IMHO doesn't exist yet, so you might get away with it for now).

Allmightybob · Mar 24, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Ok I was playing my Monk and problem arised, mesmers would constantly keep my energy pretty much around 0.

Sooooo instead of keeping my focus item on all the time, I would switch it off at the start of the fight. I'd get drained to 0 energy. Then I would switch on the focus item (gave me 12 energy) and cast two healing spells and switched it off again. During this time I had negative energy and it would charge back up again, and mesmers couldn't touch my energy supply because it was "stored" in my focus item. Rense and repeat.

Has anyone else tried this?

Pyxis · Mar 24, 2005, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Ensign wrote it up here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=801

You get points for discovering it yourself though and not reading it off the forum like everyone else. Nice find.